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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  March 24, 2022 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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russian forces shelled the ground above. her family is now in poland where her family performed the national anthem in front of thousands. . take a look. ♪ ♪ ♪ and that's tonight read out. all in with chris hayes starts now. arts now. >> tonight on all in. >> the very thing that putin is trying to do from the beginning, and i've been saying this since my days as vice president of the united states, is to break up nato. >> biden heads to europe to shore up the alliance against let him or putin. >> my objective is to demonstrate that democracies cannot function in the 21st century. >> tonight, why this is a
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pivotal moment in history as ukrainians make up ground against the russian army. then, the width of qanon in the republican attacks against judge ketanji brown jackson. and mel brooks billing more dirt as he breaks up with donald trump. >> he always brings up, we have to rescind the election. we have to take joe biden out and put me and now. >> he still says that? >> yes. >> all in starts right now. good evening from chicago. i'm chris hayes. today, president joe biden is in brussels for a series of high stakes meeting with high leaders and an emergency gathering with nato amidst the ongoing crisis in ukraine. the allies at those meetings agree to provide ukraine with -- chemical biological nuclear attack. and they announced a new round of sanctions around members of parliament and defense companies. a month into russia's unprovoked war in ukraine.
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biden and european allies are trying to show on a united front as they work to increase the pressure on russian president vladimir putin. if you step back from all the day-to-day devastation happening in ukraine, it is impossible to not see this as a pivotal moment in history. it's the first time in the 30 or something years since the end of the cold war that we've come to think of as the global order is being utterly transformed. i was ten years old when the berlin wall fell in 1989. the beginning of the end of communism in eastern europe. i remember being on summer break when the phil soviet coup happened in 1991. the last gasp of the soviet communist party. >> this has been an extraordinary day in the soviet union where gorbachev has been ousted of power and would appear to be a bloodless coup, hard-liners seized power and declared a state of emergency. armored columns of troops have taken up positions throughout
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the soviet union and mikhail gorbachev is said to be under house arrest, in his vocation home in crimea. at the, moment tanks lined the streets of moscow and there have been demonstrations and some gunfire, though no reports of any injuries. boris yeltsin, the president of the republican of russia is at the center of what resistance there is. he has called on his people to resist the emergency committee and he has urged an immediate general strike. >> that coup was defeated in a matter of days. at the communist party collapsed. and the soviet union dissolved within months. former soviet republics, including ukraine, became independent overnight. it signaled a massive shift towards freedom and democracy and began an era the decade between 1981 and 2001 where liberal democracy was largely uncontested peak. in 1992, amid american political scientist francis fukuyama published about the end of history and the last man. it was large and misunderstood at the time.
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his main point was not that nothing was significance would never happen again, that's obviously ridiculous, rather that the emerging global order in the wake of the fall of the berlin wall and the end of the cold war, the order in which everyone seemed to be converging toward liberal democracy was about as good as it was ever going to get. he writes, quote, he returns to a very old question. whether they're at the end of the end of the 20th century it makes sense for us to speak up a coherent and directional history of mankind that will eventually lead the part greater part of humanity to our democracy. the as arrive at is yes. of course, after the nazis were defeated in world war ii, the challenge was to the liberal don't capitalist democracy was communism, headquartered in russia. the battle between these two models between liberal democracy, capitalist moxie, and communism, through the cold war went on to determine the
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global order for over 30 years. 40 years. that fight defines our life for decades. but as fukuyama says, with the fall of communism, there was no longer a fundamental ideological challenge to the supremacy of liberal democracy. so there was too many a palpable sense of drift decadence, by the late 1990s. no great struggle to challenge our way of living then, of course, something happened. september 11th happened. and there was a rush, almost immediately, and i remember it even on the day itself, to find those attacks and the war on terror that ensued as a great a pocket defining clash of civilizations. an existential battle for democracy. >> tonight, we -- are country awakened to ginger and call to defend freedom. this is the world's fight. this is civilizations fight. this is the fight of all who
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believe in progress and pluralism, tolerance, and freedom. >> we just completed a century where military ideological were thrown back by democracy. we faced a kind of threat once again tonight. and once again we will prevail. >> there was an attack against civilization, civilization must respond. >> that mindset was dominant. even hegemonic. it continued for years. in fact, in 2004, then democratic presidential candidate, john perry, faced a ton of backlash for what he described what he talk thought it would take for americans to feel safe again. quote, we have to get back to the place where you were, where tires are not the focus of our lives, but they're nuisance. as a former law enforcement person, i know we're never going to and prostitution. we're never going to end illegal gambling. but we will reduce, it organized crime to a level where it isn't on the rise. it isn't threatening people's lives every day and fundamentally, it's something that you continue to fight, but it's not threatening the fabric
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of your life. just a few days later, then president w. bush brought up those remarks at the presidential debate calling them dangerous. >> yes, we can be safe and secure, if we stay on the offense against the terrorists, and if we spread freedom and liberty around the world. my opponent just this weekend talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a nuisance comparing it to prostitution, illegal gambling. i think that attitude and that point of view is dangerous. i don't think he can secure america for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to how to defeat these people. >> ultimately, i have to say and i felt this at the time really feeling now that knowing but we know now, john kerry was right. conservatives and the bush administration massively over inflated the importance of al-qaeda and, fundamentally, the ideological challenge they posed. it was insane, frankly, to
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alter our lives the way we did to divert the kind of resources we diverted to fighting that. trillions of dollars, plus thousands of americans, not to mention tens of thousands of iraqi lives. it's sickening to think about in those stark terms. all those people were clearly craving the grand ideological battle of world war ii and subsequently the cold war. they sank their teeth into this new fight, even though they were mistaken, completely, about its scope. in retrospect, it is clear the fight against al-qaeda was not an error defining war of the. era wars are challenges to the global order and liberal democracy as we know it. and that experience, that falls rush to frame things, as a kind of civilizational battle, has made me very skeptical that that it's the sort of framework to understanding global affairs, the fight for freedom versus terror. but i have to say, now, i think
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we have arrived at the kind of a pocket moment that people thought 9/11 was. and it is closing the chapter on the kind of world order that francis fukuyama identified. the end of history at the end of the cold war, liberal democracy ascended at its peak. when we have seen over the last several years is the move toward liberal democracy and openness between nations, backsliding. we've seen it in europe with the rise of hungary's viktor orban who describes himself as a illiberal democrat, and the forces that push for brexit. of course, it's been happening right here at home, donald trump, frankly, kind of an aspiring authoritarian, who admires authoritarian,'s and try to overturn a free and fair election. of course, putin's russia, where his fascist ideology and wounded national pride has turned into a brutal assault on the battlefield. putin is not only making a
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completely illegitimate land grab in the attempt to build back the soviet empire, he's also committing war crimes in ukraine, threatening to use nuclear weapons. this new land were on the european continent, pending pitting a dictator against citizens of a flawed but resilient democracy. it feels like the first new armed contract combat in a new chapter. we are seeing the entire global order that was built during that strange period of time, those 30 years after the cold war, sort of fold in on itself. another order comes down from russia, but the stakes are high and grave. ukraine has been an independent country for nearly 30 years, it's a flawed but functioning democracy where the people choose their own leader. and they have an authoritarian neighbor who just cannot accept that. it seems willing to do whatever it takes to destroy it. i think after the pandemic, a
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lot of us thought of us thought of going back to normal. but and i've come to see, both from the pandemic and the global, order there is no going back to normal now. it's gone. the past is in the past. there is no restoring but was, as deeply imperfect and unequal as that order was, and it wasn't so in so many ways. i've come to believe that the elemental fight to preserve peoples ability to govern themselves, to choose their own destiny's, is the elemental fights in the air that we have now entered. jill via snyder is a prominent fellow at the institute for human sciences in vienna. he's the author of eight books including on tyranny, 20 lessons for the 20th century, and the road and freedom in russia, and he joins me now. i wonder how you see this war and the global order right now.
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it is precariousness, the assault on liberal democracy, how much has putin's invasion of ukraine mark the end of one era and the beginning of another? >> before i get to that, i just want to note the one thing which i think does united 2001 and 2022, and that is hydrocarbons, osama bin laden unthinkable without saudi arabia and oil. and vladimir putin is unthinkable without russian natural gas and oil. in 2001, i remember advising friends at the time of influence that this is the time that we should be aiming to solve the climate change, because geopolitically we need to do. that 21 years later, we are facing another threat. i agree with, you have a completely different scale, but which would also be harmless without the dependence on oil and gas. we need to learn that this time around. but yes, putin has things which osama bin laden does not. he has a state, he has an
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ideology, he has done all the guard behind him. he's presenting a very clear idea of what an empire looks like, and the empire says, my neighbor doesn't exist, its state doesn't exist, it's people aren't really people, i, as a distant dictator, have the right to tell them who they, are and if they don't agree, i will destroy the release, i will humiliate them,, i will bring them to their knees, until they have no choice but to agree that they are who i say they are. as you say, this is about democracy, but it's also about basic decency, it's about respect for law, it's about the fundamental idea that something besides forced pounce in the international order. >> i also think that this watching this happen, watching the way in which the ukrainian people have sort of rallied and resisted, there is this idea, you say this in your interview, this idea, i think various ended in china and putin has subscribe to, it which is
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liberal democracy sort of weak. it's feckless, it's rule bound, it's not viral and powerful like these other forms of governance. you, say for me the most revealing text here is the victory declaration, which russian press agency accidentally published on february 26th. this was an article that had gone up when they thought they were gonna roll it to kyiv. but this is the west is just one more push to fall into total disarray. elaborate more on that. >> i think this leaks to your great monologue because one of the things which is wrong after 1989 which is we told ourselves that there is no alternative to democracy. we imagine that it was just gonna be brought about by history or by capitalism, or by some larger force. of course, if you do, that you're basically putting yourself to sleep. if you imagine that freedom is going to be delivered by some larger force, you are making yourself on free. if you imagine there are no alternatives, you will not see those alternatives. so i think we have to be ready to celebrate individualism.
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we have to be ready to celebrate democracy, celebrate them and recognize that they are difficult but that they are worth it. they are values worth fighting for, and ukrainians here are showing us the way. what's the chinese and the russians wants us to think is that it's all a joke. it's all hypocrisy, there are no values in the world. democracies, fake everything is fake. nothing is really any different from the way that we do things. and in attacking ukraine, russia puts it down very starkly, is the whole world just like this? is this the whole world should be or do we actually stand for something? can we imagine something that is fundamentally different and better than this? and i think you're absolutely right, it's a chance for us to imagine what freedom and what democracy would look like in our world. >> i have to say, you know, having been a journalist now for 20 years in the wake of 9/11 in the iraq war, of course, the united states and the west and the allies and nato have given tremendous amounts of ammunition to those critics who
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say that essentially it is all ridiculous hypocrisy, that it is just rhetoric, that they are just ruling by fours underneath a velvet cloth. the reason for those critiques, even if they are manipulated to -- they are not crazy at, all in, fact i think what the moment calls for his for the u.s. and allies to live up to the best version of themselves, to, at the very least, inoculate themselves from that citizen. >> i couldn't agree more. listening to your monologue, i was thinking, the late 80s, america had big problems. for example mass incarceration is something you knew well was shooting way up at that time. we had problems with our own freedom and our own democracy in the 80s which we didn't pay attention to because communism felt and the iroquois, which was our, quote, unquote, response to 9/11, made no sense. it was also criminal, it killed a huge number of people. but i think the point has to be that, if you're against stupid criminal wars, your against stupid criminal wars no matter
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who starts them,. and if you are four principles, then you are four principles in general and universally. i know that you worked with the great scholar and his book about the construction of the sort of -- the post world order postwar, and the take away i got from those, and i think it's something that comes from your work in the moment we are in now is, people that live through the rise of fascism, and authoritarianism, never forget how precious the basic liberal democracy is. how hard it is to cultivate, how hard it is to sustain, and that generation is largely died. we are now in an era where we have to re-cultivate that or, we see the threats to it everywhere we look. >> yeah, i agree. and this is where putin, and the horror of his ideology, helps. because he represents a very clear alternative. he represents a kind of fascist
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idea that which says, the world is broken, i have to fix it, the leader has a mission, history needs to be cleansed with an active purified violence, like an invasion. he has a very clear fascist ideology, which can shake us and it can remind us, of course, history is not over. history -- we are provoking history, we are asking for something. and now we got it. so i agree with you, this is a chance to affirm values, nothing is going to rescue us but us. and perhaps the ukrainians. so let's help them. >> all right, timothy snyder, thank you very much for joining us tonight. i appreciated. >> glad to. >> still ahead, ukrainian forces retake more ground around the capital city of kyiv, they now say they've sunk a russian warship. the latest on the ukrainian advances next. later, why the republican attacks on judge ketanji brown-jackson are being cheered on by qanon followers, that story coming up. story coming up. th a plant-based adaptogen,
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underway in ukraine, do ukrainian military says they are making up some ground. this is footage from mockery, just west of the capital kyiv. ukrainian officials say they pushed russian troops out of that city two days ago. today, the ukrainian armed forces said they had a large russian landing ship docked in the port. a the ship they claim to attack was featured on russian television just days ago. the new york times has videos and photos they have, quote, reviewed that it was at the. port 40 miles from the besieged city of mariupol where the line of civilians trying to get a today stretched on, and on. the city is still being bombarded by russia, a new video share today by the mariupol city council shows just how absolutely damaging the strikes have been. joined now by cal perry live in lviv tonight. cal, the russian military
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hasn't made it to the vp, but the worst of the impact is still being felt. what are people doing to help the ukrainians on the front lines? >> so, we are seeing, and we saw this morning, in a parking, law just here in downtown lviv, the transfer of goods. supplies and goods headed to the front. we're talking about flak jackets, drones, anti drone jamming equipment, scopes for sniper rifles. it is this aid that is flowing sort of frequently and consistently as you see on the screen. this is nato's way of supplying the front without directly doing so. we heard the russians say that they would target nato countries who were directly supplying the ukrainian fight. so we have these ngos, these groups that are acting like middle man getting the stuff. through the amazing thing is that this was happening in broad daylight. we're invited to, again, a parking lot just downtown here in the. if these countries are willing to supply sort of under the table. one month on from this war, that is of course, great to see for the ukrainian army. but the reality is, what is happening in the east of the country where the civilian areas are just being destroyed,
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it is a complete catastrophe. you now have more than half of the children in this country haven't been displaced. you have cities disciplining from the map. you have this ukrainian counter offensive, it comes at an interesting time with the president now in europe with any talks of the cease-fire on the table. the question is, that trade-off. the ukrainians are worried. every time they talk about a cease-fire with the russians, it just allows the russians to regroup. especially around the capital. and every time they seem to make any inroads, especially in the capital where we see this counterattacks, the russians just seemed to punish the civilian population in the eastern part of the country. it is a war from another time. one month on, when you look at the refugees situation, it is catastrophic, chris. >> cal perry, who's been doing amazing reporting in lviv, live from lviv tonight. thank you call, and stay safe. >> thank you, chris. >> i'm joined now by national security expert, joe crincione,
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he just published an article entitled, let's curb the loose talk of using a lower yield nuclear weapons. where there is a headline i can get behind. let's start with what it has been said today in europe and in brussels in nato. there's a lot of concern, clearly, on the part of the u.s. government, i think the u.s. intelligence agency and allies, about putin being essentially at a stalemate. it looks more and more like that's the case. and reaching for some kind of either chemical, biological, or even nuclear attack, to break that stalemate. how plausible do you find that? how should we think about that and the noises that are coming from nato about that? >> i find it very plausible. it is the way putin thinks, it's what he did in syria, to try to win the war. just it kept increasing the attack. nato leaders take this very seriously for two reasons. warren is, we've never been in
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this situation before, we've never confronted this. and it is a completely unpredictable thing. we played more games that came out these scenarios, but they don't really have satisfactory answers. of course they are just games. once you start this process of using chemical weapons or god forbid a nuclear weapon, there is no clear termination point. there is no clear way to win that game. >> okay, yes, clearly -- i'm trying not to panic here. i find, you say -- let's stop the loose talk of nukes. even today i was reading the line of the script, the readout from nato, and they're going to send preparation to deal with a bio chemical nuclear attack, i'm thinking, what the hell? what universe are we in if there's the use of those weapons? what does that even mean in real terms? >> if he does a chemical attack, which is more likely because he did this in syria, not talking
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about probably not souring or nerve gas, which is very deadly, but chlorine, easy to manufacture, you could say -- you could deny responsibility for it. we did make, that blame it on the ukrainians. he used that in syria, it killed thousands of people. it was horrible. it's a terrible weapon. but it's not really a game-changer. so the nato response to that is somewhat easier. so this wouldn't be something like clouds of chlorine gas would drift into european, nato territory. this would be local, it would be confined. horrible, but you can respond to that by increasing sanctions, increasing aid to the ukrainians, possibly engaging in a direct strike against the units that carried out that attack. when that gets risky because we have nato forces -- that's relatively containable. the whole thing goes off the chart when you talk about nuclear weapons and how to respond to a first use by putin of a nuclear weapon which is in russian doctrine.
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which is something he has threatened. which i consider a realistic possibility, the more that this war goes, on the greater the risk is that he will use that move. >> what are the ways to reduce that risk? >> so, we have to first understand how dangerous this is. the type of weapon he would probably use, the kind that can be fitted on the iskander missiles that he's already using for conventional attack, that is a ton till a ton weapon, that's two thirds the size of the hiroshima bomb. that's 10,000 tons of destructive force. a weapon that we would use is probably the w 77 slash to warhead that's on some of our subs. that's of 5000 ton warhead. just to get perspective about this. the average bomb that we drop, conventional bomb, is 1000 ton bomb. a b-52 can carry -- when we're talking about from this one warhead that we would
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use, same response, is 5000 tons that's 10 million pounds. so that's 10 million of these bombs dropping. you have to -- 10,000 of these bombs dropping. just imagine how big a strike that is. if you look at mariupol and how it's taken four weeks to destroy that city. one of these weapons could destroy it in an afternoon. and then of course you have the fire storms and radiation. this is a weapon that's off the chart. how do we respond to that? some people argue that we should respond in kind. if he uses a weapon, we go use a weapon. two years ago, john kirby, the press secretary for d.o.d., briefed reporters on wargames that involved a russian strike on a european city and how we responded to that. he never told us how that game ended for good reason. most of the time we play these games, they escalate. each side thinks they have to
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make a decisive final move. and they forget that the enemy has a move to. so it quickly escalates into global for more nuclear war. and it reminds you have the 1983 matthew broderick movie, wargames. the only winning move is not to play. we have to prevent the situation from getting to this point. >> okay. joe crincione, think you, i guess, for that. really chilling stuff. thank you. >> thank you, chris. >> coming up, as the millbrook's vengeance tour continues, donald trump's influence fading in the republican party. don't go anywhere, we will be right back. right back my boss doesn't remember approving my time off. let's just... find that email. the old way of doing business slows everyone down. with paycom, employees enter and manage their own hr data in one easy-to-use software.
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to rescind the election. of 20. 20 >> you said that you cannot do that. what did he ask. you and what did you tell him? >> he always brings up we've got a rescind the election. we need to take joe biden out and put me in. now >> he still says? that >> i've maternity, i've read the law read the oxygen and i say mister president you cannot do that. >> that is former trump loyalist alabama republican congressman moe brooks. lashing out at donald trump. after trump pulls his underestimate from brooks is struggling senate campaign. this all started yesterday. and now more brooks ill talk
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about anybody who will listen how the ex president is still pushing to illegally resign the election. >> this is the first time we've seen a former loyalist politicians strike back publicly to trump at least in this fashion. and it comes as the war in ukraine and other factors seem to be contributing to a diminishing of disgraced ex president. moe brooks doesn't have much to lose of course he's way down the polls in his race. which is the real reason why trump endorsed him, obviously. but trump stranglehold control of the republican parties being challenged. moe brooks that encourage -- republicans well we'll see about that. political founding editor john f. harris, trump makes so much noise and still so much fear in politicians, that it could be hard to see the deterioration is taking place in his political foundation. and john harris joins me now. i agree with your thesis john. and it's felt very palpable to be the last few weeks. but lay out why you think or seeing signs of the political
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foundation, of his personal political power diminishing? >> well right in the near term is he's placed a bunch of bans by trying to be kingmaker in these republican races. and love to see what's on the primary nomination ballot. but certainly it looks like he's placed a lot of bats that may not pay off. little books back was not paying off. so he rescinded as he pointed. out if you step back on what's going on in the here and now there is a bigger factor going. on which is trump has lost touch with the original reasons for his appeal for people to back him. and that is two things. one, he stood he wasn't a phony and he was against the head of political beatrice. now he's the enforcer of. that people aren't phony enough. they don't agree, say they don't agree with him about the
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election being stolen. and he doesn't care about what they. think he just wants them to say what he wants. but that really highlights like trump has kind of become one of the political phonies himself. and trump originally stood for. hey, i'm gonna break the political inside i'm gonna break in the machine. -- now he is the reigning power. and there's a real -- >> yeah, in some ways he's a victim of his own success politically say would you will about 2015 2016 even sound like any of the other candidates. now everything -- sounds like trump. they all sound like politicians. that's the dominant cadence, tone, delivery, message of the republican party. all sounds like. cam and -- >> he ran as an anti politician now he's a supreme -- >> yeah, exactly. but at the same time right the
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diminishment of the personal political power. that doesn't mean to me that there is any diminishment in the forces there. this is today. this is the attorney general for the state of alabama sworn into go talk to the senate judiciary committee. refusing to say, the joe biden is the rightful president of united states in a free and fair election. take a listen. >> it is joseph r. biden of delaware the duly elected and serving president of the united states of america? >> he is the president of this country. is he the a duly elected and serving president of the united states? >> are you answering that -- omitting the language duly elected and lawfully serving purposefully? >> i'm answering the question. he is the president of united states. >> that's not some fringe dude in posting on twitter.
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that's the attorney general for alabama. so intense an orthodox that he cannot see that plane i won't say the plane drew. >> well, it's right the fringes become the center in the republican party. i agree with that on this question. >> speaking of which there's a remarkable bombshell reporting tonight about attacks that the white house -- clarence thomas. apparently sent to mark meadows the white house chief of staff during that period after the electoral. -- as many as 25, 29 tech something like that. all right here from the washington post. this is right around the election in november 5th to mark meadows. thomas one to go to patches that circulate on right-wing websites. biden crime family and ballot fraud coconspirators, elected officials, barack had, social media censorship mongers, fake stream media except are being arrested and detained for ballot fraud in the coming days will be living in barges off
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gitmo to face military tribunals for sedition. >> that's the spouse of a supreme court justice texting the supreme -- >> you know chris what's interesting when you showed that clip -- [inaudible] he knew the truth and he was corresponding a lot. the one that mobile ox fuses to spot. what's really striking about these emails it clearly ginni thomas is absolutely sincere. you may say is she insane, is she crazy? >> but there's no artifice there offensively -- that was what's really striking to me. >> and i would go is step further and say that's the way things are going. that's the vanguard's will be more, and more people of her ranks filling up the conservative movement and republican party as time goes by. she's not putting on a bed, this is not an act to sell
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anything to people. this is what she believes. this is sincere deeply, deeply felt. and people should think about the implications. john harris, thank you very. much >> thank you, chris. >> still to come out of the republican attacks on judge jackson could be more than your standard bad favor arguments. and a calculated appeal of a conspiracy theory faction of the party. i'll explain ahead. y faction of the party. i'll explain ahead i'll explain ahead biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in certain adults. it's not a cure, but with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to and stay undetectable. that's when the amount of virus is so low it cannot be measured by a lab test. research shows people who take h-i-v treatment every day and get to and stay undetectable can no longer transmit h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems. do not take biktarvy if you take dofetilide or rifampin.
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republicans from doubling down on the debunked argument anyway. both themselves and further witnesses. >> i want to make certain that we protect children. and that we continue to do our best effort to protect children. i also want to make certain that we are going to have judges on the federal bench and justices that are going to protect those rights. of children. >> significant concern has been raised by myself and others. about judge jackson's pattern in sentencing criminal defendants guilty of -- child pornography. in terms of the children who are exploited in these images. is it fair to say that many of these children were sex traffic. that they're trafficking victims themselves? >> of the ones that we can identify sometimes gas. the children that are depicted
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and the child pornography are -- some of them are trafficked. yes. >> you might be thinking too soft gosh it's a little weird how much josh holiday lights talk about child sexual abuse. but this line of attack from republicans is very deliberate. all explain how along with the dark deal of opponents are making or to kill their base. and this smear the first black woman nominee to supreme court is receiving next. supreme court is receiving next. is receiving next.
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republican senators sounded like you are not obsessed on the confirmation hearing for john g brown apparently that's the -- and they're catering to. that is why apparently they spent the past few days attacking her for supposedly being soft on criminals convicted of possessing child abuse material. even after that particular spirit was widely debunked. and that's one of my next guest for the new york times, part of a plan to fire up the white ring conspiracy in days. quote, the qanon conspiracy flying into action almost as soon as senator josh hawley tweeted his alarm -- that judge ketanji brown jackson had handed down since below the minutemen recommended for possessing images of child sexual abuse. an apologist for child molesters. one qanon supporter declared. democrats were repeatedly elevating pedophiles and people who can change the laws surrounding punishment for pedophiles. judith browne dianis is the --
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advancement. project and stuart a. thompson new york times covering misinformation, disinformation he cowrote that story i just quoted from qanon chairs, republican attacks on jackson. democratic cinci a single. you talk a little bit about how -- notable that anyone in washington hearing this was the thing that a huge amount of times was spent on by republicans specifically certain republicans who were most anxious to appeal to the base on this and how that resonated with qanon folks online? >> well this is a long held belief among qanon followers. that there is rings of child exploitation engaging in that kind of behavior. and so it's a pretty -- to pick up on that. you don't have to go very far with it for them to grab onto it. and that's exactly what they. did so, after saturday halle's tweeted about it the communities that we followed
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see that idea and now it's quickly becoming part of the lore in those communities. and this wasn't something we saw in confirmation hearings last year. and in previous context for -- confirmation hearings. so, it seems to be reflective of the fact that a lot of republicans and trump supporting republicans to follow this conspiracy theory. -- 40% of trump followers know about qanon. and three of the ten so that's pretty big constituency that they seem to be appealing. to >> judith, what's going through your head as you're watching these hearings, when i found quite disgusting, you know repeated questions along this line to the judge? >> well, chris, i would hate to be a conspiracy theorists about consider it safe theorists. but [laughs] this was a particular crime
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that they kept owning in on. so, we do need to understand the connection to qanon. and the idea that they're trying to feed this group of far-right with ideas that continuously question the legitimacy of the institution of our democracy. and so whether it's the election or now the supreme court. they're feeding them. these are the same people who showed up on january six. so, we should be worried about them stoning the fires. but also the fact that they have associated a black woman with being soft on crime. which then kind of signals this criminality issue around black people in general. it is problematic. and whether it was this or guantánamo bay questioning. they continue to have this story about soft -- and that's also catering to the midterms and getting up their base for the midterms as well as the conversation about race
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theory. critical race theory. >> i want to follow up with you, judith, part of stewart's reporting on this is excellent. there is a kind of -- conspiracy theory. about child exploitation. but also to me i saw good old fashion bad demagogic politics that -- new york city. which any lawyer, any judge that ever gives a sentence that's a downward departure is opening themselves off in the future to be soft on crime. you're soft on. crime part of the reason that politics that we incarcerate more people than anyone else is basically in the pant. >> that's why this was 1994. chris. we're back in that moment. where this was really about we've got a lock up more people. lawn. order but this is the narrative that's being throughout the country. to roll back some of the progress that's been made. in taking a hit at mass incarceration.
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>> and stuart, how conscious is your reporting indicate this sort of cultivation is among these politicians? >> well, it's hard to say but i think if you look at the heads of politics in the numbers sort of speak for themselves in terms of the -- available. so, those are pretty good demographic there's millions, millions of people. and in terms of supporting republicans the odds of being inflated in theory. goes up. there's another second as well of people who are sort of adjacent to the conspiracy under the banner, save the children. the idea is that a lot of people can get behind but they do have roots in those communities. so, whether or not they're floating the actual conspiracy or pandering to the face. it's hard to. say but we certainly see it happening. >> yeah, i will say i don't say it again. that's a conspiracy of a small group of elite powerful people. behind the exploitation of
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children. that's a somewhat comforting one in so far as the reality of the exploitation and abuse of children is shockingly common and done by people who are adjacent and trusted. everywhere you look whether it's josh doug or, or ted cruz, our devin astor -- republican speaker of the house. that's the reality. the grim reality of it. not some secret volunteer -- judith browne dianis and stuart a. thompson thank you very much. that all in on that thursday. night andy velshi starts now -- t andy velshi starts now - >> we will see you next. thank you at for joining us this hour and coming again to you tonight from warsaw, poland where president biden will be arriving tomorrow after attending nato summit in brussels. now the very first nato summit was a 1957. nato had been formed eight years earlier but there had never been a nato

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